Chatting with Penelope Fry; International Consultant and Vegan Market Expert

Today I am chatting with Penelope Fry. Penelope is the international consultant and vegan market expert founder of vegan marketing agency jacoi.com and manager of sites like veganireland.org, where she helps people work and do business in the plant-based market. At home, she loves vegan market statistics, bicycles, vegan junk food, and cat memes.

 

Key points addressed were  

• Penelope’s extensive expertise and advice therein regarding company’s incorporating vegan aspects into their curriculum
• We also discussed the rapidly changing global ethos regarding vegan products, companies, and financial markets

 

TRANSCRIPTION

*Please note, this is an automated transcription please excuse any typos or errors

 

[00:00:00] In this episode, I speak with international consultant and Vegan market expert Penelope Fry. Key points addressed where Penelope's extensive expertize and advice there in regarding companies incorporating Vegan aspects into their curriculum. We also discuss the rapidly changing global ethos regarding Vegan products, companies and financial markets. Stay tuned for my fascinating talk with Penelope Fry.

 

[00:00:33] My name is Patricia Kathleen. And this series features interviews and conversations I conduct with experts from food and fashion to tech and agriculture, from medicine and science to health and humanitarian arenas. The dialog captured here is part of our ongoing effort to host transparent and honest rhetoric. For those of you who, like myself, find great value in hearing the expertize and opinions of individuals who have dedicated their work and lives to their ideals. If you're enjoying these podcasts, be sure to check out our subsequent series that dove deep into specific areas such as founders and entrepreneurs. Fasting and roundtable topics they can be found on our Web site. Patricia Kathleen Dot, where you can also join our newsletter. You can also subscribe to all of our series on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, Pod Bean and YouTube. Thanks for listening. Now let's start the conversation.

 

[00:01:29] Hi, everyone, welcome back. I am your host, Patricia. And today I'm delighted to be sitting down with Penelope Fry. Penelope is an international consultant and Vegan market expert. You can find out more about everything Penelope is involved in, as well as everything we talk about today on her company Web site, decoy dot com. That is Jayce. Oh, I dot com. Welcome, Penelope.

 

[00:01:51] I'm very happy to be here. Thank you so much for having me.

 

[00:01:55] Absolutely. And for everyone listening, I will read a brief bio on Penelope. But prior to getting to that. A quick roadmap for today's podcast. You can find follow the trajectory and the line in which our inquiry will be based out of. We will first have Penelope unpack her personal story and narrative as it relates to veganism. And then we'll look at Chicoy and the efforts and endeavors that Penelope involves in the Vegan efforts within that. We'll also look at the consulting and different narratives that Penelope. Techniques and things like that that she has involved in in her Vegan life. We'll wrap everything up with looking at some of the ethos of what Dacoit is, as well as where Penelope is headed with her future endeavors and goals.

 

[00:02:38] And then we'll wrap the entire podcast up with rapid fire questions that we have pulled from people who have been listening in our audience and submitted to our website regarding questions of one inquiry with her area of expertize. As promised, a really quick background and bio on pilot Penelope. Penelope Fry is the Internation International consultant and Vegan market expert, founder of Vegan marketing agency Chicoy AECOM and manager of sites like Vegan Ireland dot org, where she helps people work and do business in the plant based market at home. She loves Vegan market statistics, bicycle's Vegan junk food and cat names. So Penelope and I know you function in a lot of different areas and I kind of want to have you unpack that for everyone listening, because I know you you kind of get around the globe, so to speak. And so I'm hoping you can kind of draw us a picture of your platform or your personal Vegan story comes from and kind of all the different areas that you're working in right now. Before we unpack, Chicoy, Acom.

 

[00:03:39] Sure, no problem. I started my life in Australia and my family is split between the UK and Australia. So. I basically started in the beef capital of Australia, of all places, which is a small town called Rockhampton. From there, I've managed to have some great opportunities through a couple of university degrees and then into consulting work, which was largely soul destroying standard corporate consulting work. And from there, I've established a very large network, both professionally and socially within the Vegan scene and the broader plant based scene. And I had the opportunity to bring these two together. And so it's been a fantastic journey from the beef capital of Australia. Now to the Middle East, where I'm sitting today stuck with Cober 90. And yeah. And and the UK as well. So it's essentially. For me, Chicoy is quite simple. It's as we as we said, it's helping people work and do business in the Vegan market. My focus is really quite straightforward. I work with teams on copywriting web page development, market research, confidential surveys as well, and general content development aligned with business strategy in terms of my origins in the Vegan lifestyle. I started off looking after ducklings, of all things, my friends. My friends are given ducklings by their father. And. We raised them as children together for a year, and then my my father, my friend's father killed the ducks and served them to us for Christmas lunch, and the poor chap stood there completely confused by the fact we were sitting around the table crying together, rather rather upset because we'd really bonded with these lovely, friendly little souls that would greet us in the garden as we came home. Go. And from there, I went to visit a friend's house and they had a cattle station. And I witnessed some really dreadful animal cruelty when I was helping mustering on horseback, and I had sort of made the decision I didn't want to eat duck. And then I I made the decision. I just want to eat beef anymore. And I had no idea that a vegetarian or a vegan even existed until my tastes. But I just knew that I I was I was really uncomfortable with the way that we were treating other sentient beings. Then through my environmental science degree, which is my first degree, I learned about fisheries economics and the impact on the Great Barrier Reef, which is adjacent to the town of Rockhampton. And I moved into capital city life and big city life. And I met other people who shared my values and I learned about vegetarianism at first. And then, yeah, I had the opportunity to go vegan around the time they were inventing the very first soy based ice cream, which really wasn't. It wasn't all that great, but it was just enough to be the final gift for me. And I haven't looked back.

 

[00:07:49] Yeah, I have to say, the advent, I say this a lot. And I'm sure the audience is tired of hearing me say it.

 

[00:07:55] But I feel like even in the past five years, Vegan substitutes for other articles, not just meat. I never preferred the taste of meat as a child. So that wasn't difficult.

 

[00:08:05] But cheeses and things like that that I think Greece nailed about 10 years ago. It just took forever to come over to the states. But ice cream and things of that nature, you know, they've in the past five years just leaps and bounds from what it was, say, 10 years ago.

 

[00:08:21] So I feel your pain and remembering the beginning versions of that thing. Kind of a weird consistency in flavor. I'm curious with you personally, how do you feel about cooking and Vegan food? You've called yourself a kind of a junk food vegan. How can you explain a little bit more about Stree with that?

 

[00:08:45] Yes, absolutely. A junk food vegan. And I'm a very lazy B into. It's terrible to admit it that I really have to earn it.

 

[00:08:56] My friends are fantastic cooks and I have a reputation for the worst meal at the potluck lunch when we have our own get togethers. But I continue to have enthusiasm in my cooking, much to everybody's dismay when I go out. That's when I get to really enjoy great Vegan food.

 

[00:09:22] So I'm willing to spend good money for parties satisfying tasty, incredible food that I can't get at heart. And there's so much more to the vegan lifestyle than, you know, than food, obviously.

 

[00:09:39] But when you're cooking, isn't that flash? You really appreciate a really great meal, especially if it's a greasy breakfast. It's just fantastic.

 

[00:09:53] Absolutely. And it's I mean, it's kind of you know, you've talked about how it's the impetus for you kind of climbing into Chicoy. I think that Jacoway is well, and I'm not sure we will get into when it was launched and things of that nature and how long you've been around.

 

[00:10:08] But I feel like now is the time for companies like yours and Dacoit. You know, this idea of you talked about how, you know, Vegan already Vegan companies are obviously welcome, but you also have this endeavor to kind of help, you know, persuade current companies swopping in Vegan alternatives for products that they have. Can we climb into you like at this point? When was Decoy launched and what was the impetus for you starting it?

 

[00:10:35] Officially, it started just at the start of last year. So. My background is in international consulting, and I've dealt with both Vegan and non Vegan businesses and products. And it was, as I said before, it was really quite soul destroying to to work on on projects that weren't aligned with my values. So I saw an opportunity to sort of bring discipline into my own side, hustle activities and just rule out working with with people and on projects that I didn't feel comfortable with. So out of that sort of those a couple of years where I was integrating some of those side hustle activities and also my in my professional life and that I formalized Chicoy at the start of last year. And it's it's been fantastic to have support and to have fabulous people working with me on the journey. And now was covered 19, unfortunately, but also fortunately, there's been a really great opportunity to bring talent into the Vegan market as people have unfortunately lost their their core roles and they've pivoted to their side hustle. So we have fantastic Web developers and other talented people now really throwing that their energy into work that they love. And we've we've had some good opportunities associated with that. Also, the demand for Vegan products and services has has shocked everybody. There's been a huge growth in especially plant based protein alternatives, meat alternatives. It's it's just incredible. And that's we could talk a little bit more about that later.

 

[00:12:43] Well, there is. And that was building. It's interesting.

 

[00:12:46] And the pandemic, you know, has had a narrative all unto itself, of course, but it was building, especially in other markets. I've just kind of started learning about. I was in Australia actually, when the pandemic and the shelter in place order was put into place. And I was kind of covering more about the Vegan enterprise there as Visit Ireland yearly. And so I'm very well aware of how that scene has eventuated there. But there are different parts in Europe. You know, Europe as well. For myself, being from the states, it's smaller per country, but it has its own theme is particularly when it comes to things like that are so culturally integrated as veganism, but within that, within the economy of each country, I think it's been received very differently as well. But in the States, you know, you had beyond burger and be impossible burger beyond meat. All of these things starting to gain a lot of financial viability and become very lucrative. And then that was affecting things and then the pandemic hit. And I think that that really satiated. You know, we also had the documentaries that came out. Yes. Finding people to have reexamined their dialog with their diet, you know, as it related to the environment, as it related to sustainability. In addition to health and Lenz's, I think that we're already being applied. But that's why I was curious, because it seems like it was auspicious for you to launch Chicoy right. During this time period because you couldn't have known, you know, Kovac was coming out and no one could. And are treacherous nature that would take place. But also this kind of this force of nature to have. You know, most people on this globe reexamined their relationship with food and its origins and what we're doing. And so I think that the economy, once it comes back, there will be a great deal of effort in the globe over towards looking at Vegan endeavors. And so when I looked at your company and dacoit, I thought, this is just fascinating. And I want you to kind of unpack what it is, what clientele, what is your profile of your client look like? Who are you helping and what kind of techniques? What endeavors are you doing with your efforts?

 

[00:14:58] Oh, well, the average client at the moment is twofold. One is your your sort of small scale small business operator who's looking for practical help as they set up their their website or they try to upgrade their website. And we're talking about subscription packages for regular content where we can help them by understanding the message they'd like to give. And we'll research the key words and really understand how they can position themselves in relation to the competition.

 

[00:15:40] And also in the face of the pressure of search engine optimization and all those sorts of practical aspects as well. And, you know, the role is really a doing role as much as an advising role.

 

[00:15:54] At the end of the day, you have to actually create content that you can then market. If you don't have anything to say, you really you're invisible and you're not competitive. So part of my role is to work directly with the clients. I'm supported by freelancers and subcontractors. But I try to make sure that I do as much of the actual doing work. You know, the content development work myself. And also the other aspect is creating content that I'll use for affiliate marketing revenue and influence revenue for the businesses itself as well. And finally, although it's not necessarily profit driven, it's cost recovery driven. You know, I'm really keen to continue to work with people who are looking for work within roles that are aligned. And I could be compatible with with Vegan values because that's something that I struggled with for well over 15 years, you know, to have to do work that you're uncomfortable with. Inner and craving the ability to just work with people that you love, doing work that you feel right about and and just looking forward to each day. So we've got information available for job seekers. And I'm also actively working with job boards on a sort of cost recovery basis to help them promote and grow their services so that people who are looking for work that's aligned with big and values can find it. And likewise, people who are trying to recruit can find the knowledge and team members cost effectively without the sort of random lucky dip of the big search.

 

[00:18:07] The big search engines in the job market, I think, is we start to become more aligned.

 

[00:18:13] It is true. I you know, I think that when people endeavor to talk about veganism, they they define it in terms of one area or the caveat in which they were baptized.

 

[00:18:24] So it's health or ethical or sustainability, environmental ism, things of that nature, morality. All of those. But what they quickly discover is that it's, you know, as the reason why the podcast is labeled Vegan life, you know, is because it's it becomes this environment. And I think this is such a clever way of looking at it. You're the first person I've spoken to the talks about these kinds of, you know, clauses that one wants to ascribe to the work that they're endeavoring in, you know, and likewise, a Vegan company wanting people that were, you know, aligned with those values as well makes a ton of sense. And I think that it's an area that people haven't really considered. I'm curious with your clients and where you see yourself, do you function in your in so many different environments, you know, across the globe? Do you find yourself functioning better with clients that are based in one country or another? Or do you truly feel it's like a global effort because things like MCO and that are global efforts? Or do you think that you you serve a client better to this point in a different country?

 

[00:19:27] It's absolutely a global effort. I like like your work. You know, we really do have a it's a it's not necessarily an integrated market or an integrated community, but there are common themes. And we can take lessons that we learn from one country and and test them and experiment them with an experiment with them and learn from them to see if that might help somebody in another market. That's an opportunity for people to support each other without feeling threatened about competition. But it's also yeah, it's also an opportunity to sort of, I guess, learn and grow and compete because we are competing with the dairy industry who are doing very unhelpful, you know, advertising campaigns where we're seeing a lot of pushback associated with success when it when a small business starts to reach a point, which is this is the area I'm really interested in when it's starting to reach a point that they're getting traction, you can get pushback and it can become very difficult to step it up to the next level. You'll see everything from the David Young and the team that are doing Omni Polk, which launched in in Hong Kong technically. But it's a global prospect and they're fairly and squarely, squarely targeting something as ubiquitous as spam.

 

[00:21:09] Like who would have thought you'd find a Vegan spam? That's ridiculous.

 

[00:21:14] Yeah, it's it's a it's a really strange. It's a really strange market. I have a language barrier in that, you know, there is a lot of opportunity at the moment.

 

[00:21:28] In Germany, for example, Google Trends statistics are going off at the right in terms of the intensity of interest in veganism in Germany, not just for recipes, but in terms of the the lifestyle.

 

[00:21:46] And I'd love to get involved, but I'm unfortunately not multilingual. I speak a little bit of German in that respect. So, yeah, we're limited by our abilities, but I do see it as a completely integrated global market. Absolutely.

 

[00:22:08] And mentioning Germany, we had a guest on not too long ago, a couple of weeks back, who is. In Burma, and I was saying, you know, it's it again, you know, you think you have an understanding of where veganism is. You know, Germany to Ireland is a couple states away, in my terminology, fee. And it's a completely different scene. And, you know, and it's it's this incredibly mainstream, the amount of restaurants, you know, it's just the fashion designers who are completely married to the vegan lifestyle just burgeoning in Germany is it's enthralling.

 

[00:22:39] I myself just found myself dying to get over there. And, of course, you know, can't right now.

 

[00:22:44] Terrible.

 

[00:22:46] Yeah, it is a little heartbreaking.

 

[00:22:49] I'm curious with you and your team, and as you kind of start to expand and look to the future, I'm wondering where we can all kind of see or guess or hope that, you know, this this wave building will begin to just kind of envelop and become so much more of a not just a more profound but more diversified, you know, conversation as it looks into veganism and the planet and all of these things that kind of get wrapped into that. Where do you personally on a business trend, do you see? Because it's starting to spike. You know, people would argue, at least economically, United States economy, that the funding alone for Vegan products and research and things of that nature has just skyrocketed to end. And that shit is paralleled all over the world to certain degrees. Do you own a business scale? Do you see it continuing to go up? Do you see it flattening out? What are your some of your predictions for that?

 

[00:23:47] Well, twofold. Firstly, I think one of the biggest signals that we've seen has been associated with Carpet 19. I I've I'll be honest, I was completely shocked that, you know, meat alternatives like fresh meat alternatives grew at two hundred and seventy nine percent year on year in March this year, at a time when you'd expect people to suddenly be very price sensitive, hunk like bunkered down fresh chicken sales were up, but they're running up fifty one percent, for example. So you can't say that it was it was equivalent to people panic buying, you know, in a in a normal scale of a response. You know, there was there's been a real, really profound shift in consumption behaviors. So that I think signals a change in terms of price sensitivity in the future. And a lot of people complain about veganism not being possible because it's too expensive. You know, it's inconvenient. All of those excuses are starting to dry up because the large volume of activity right across everything from food to fashion to education. You know, prices are coming down and it's becoming more accessible for people to learn and and also to take on Vegan lifestyle choices. So with that, I do see some risks associated with profit margins reducing as as price competition starts to drive prices down. We are going to need to embrace people like me who are lazy.

 

[00:25:45] Junk food pagan's. They've just want a really great meal. You know, after you finished the working day and you really can't be bothered making, you know, something incredible is made me. I want to go to bed. So, you know, it's it's.

 

[00:26:09] A risk where profit margins could become a little bit tighter. It could become a little bit more competitive. But if you're in the supply space. So if you're the manufacturer of pineapple leather or you're the manufacturer of these inputs, you've got a bigger opportunity because they there are going to be more companies, manufacturing products that are big and friendly. There are going to be more consumers, obviously looking towards your types of products. So it really depends where you are, if you will. Customer facing. You're going to need to really be on the front foot to compete and to maintain your profit margins. That's why we stay pretty lean. We we expand and morph depending on the work coming in. Secondly, really want to move back into the supply chain so that you've got a good, steady stream of opportunity where it doesn't matter what type of bags in fashion next month you're providing the raw materials or some other value that will will carry through trends and changes over time. And internationally. So I think that's going to be that's going to be the most important aspect of the next probably two years. But you're right. Mean, you mentioned, was about interest and investment in this. You've seen the stock market changes. Obviously, everyone knows about the beyond meet listing. And there are other IPOs that have been brave enough to move forward during this period. But there really is an appetite for. Investing not only in the ETF and other financial products that align with the sector. I think that's lagging. So if people are working in finance or they're looking to raise funding, that could be an opportunity in the next two years as well.

 

[00:28:21] Absolutely. And I know that there are funds in the United States that at least two that I know of and there's probably more but directly devoted, you know, to pennies. And I think we'll see a burgeoning with those funds as well, because there is obviously there is a market for it. You know, in scrap there's going to be money. If there's a market for it, there's going to be an investment. So and that will be exciting. I think that those will kind of start to define and hopefully change even that industry. We could use a serious tightening up and judging of the investment industry in general as this is a woman, I think we're highly underrepresented, you know, in a lot of those industries and a lot of things like veganism and even environmentalism, things haven't been really represented in areas like funds that they should be.

 

[00:29:08] And I think it's just starting to take hold. So hopefully there's change. I'm wondering, it's when you speak about your clients and what you're doing and looking at the markets and you kind of allude to a lot of this education and it struck me looking at Dacoit, that a great deal of what you do as you encounter a new client. It sounds like there's a great deal of translation and education in regards to substituting out products and talking about buzz words and key terms. Is there any area? Do you have like a five pillar roadmap or a like a basic outline that you kind of use when you encounter new clients, where you educate them as to how to engage in a substitution of, you know, Vegan products or how to kind of make that transition? Or do you just use every client individually as they come and kind of do the narrative with them?

 

[00:30:03] It's definitely a case of every client as they come.

 

[00:30:06] But if you're looking in the food space, there is a traditional model called menu engineering, which is used both in the restaurant sector and also in food manufacturing, where you have a quadrant in terms of your your star products, your workhorses, your puzzles and your dogs. So there's a general model where you'll have and I love dogs. I don't know why they've called the terrible products dogs, but I love dogs. You'll have a workhorse which doesn't have a high profitability, but it has a really solid performance of pretty good sales. You'll have your stars, which are menu items or other products you offer that are really profitable and they're really popular as well. So you want to leave them to it. You can have puzzle's, which is sort of quite profitable, but not particularly popular.

 

[00:31:16] And you might be able to judge or do something with those. But then you have in any set, they'll be part of the data that falls into. It's not really very profitable and you don't sell a lot of it. So those are the ones where we'll we'll talk the businesses and say.

 

[00:31:36] That's pretty low risk if you're going just rather than take on the additional expense, risk and investment by adding Vegan products to your your offering. Why don't you just swap out a dog? It's a pretty low risk strategy. And it's also something that you can do in a systematic way to look at the what's a star and see whether or not something like that in a in a Vegan ised version could be brought in to give you another star and get rid of a dog. So that's kind of the general framework that we find applies pretty well to a lot of cases. But it honestly, it really does come down to the business itself and the competition that they're facing. So if you're looking at an opportunity, you're going to take one approach. But if you're looking to defend your business, you're definitely going to take another.

 

[00:32:39] Do you ever bring in studies done? And if so, do you use global studies?

 

[00:32:44] I mean, there's got to be data about, you know, using the restaurant model of, you know, people who are offering Vegan options and how successful those are as kind of this persuasion technique, or do you just kind of use it for whatever they are? Because food and particularly restaurant owners that I know of here, there is an emotional attachment that's to the, you know, millions level with them. And I think even Gordon Ramsay, people that go into, you know, on these public scales and kind of talk to people, you have these menus that don't make any sense. And they're there because it was what their mother made them when they were six, you know, and that's how on a more microscopic level, how we all, I think, come into this world knowing food. And the reanalysis of that is part of, I think, the Vegan journey. But do you personally use substitutions or studies done? And if so, are there a lot of studies done? How do you kind of help with the persuasion technique of swapping out a dog? Because dogs really shouldn't be on the menu. They're clearly there is some kind of an irreconcilable difference that, you know, the owner is having. What techniques do you use?

 

[00:33:52] Essentially, your best friend is daughter in relation to reviews, for example. So, yes, we do find that there are there are a few surveys around, like there was a survey last year that looked at the issue of the impact of using the word Vegan versus plant based in food based products. And we know that, you know, statistically, you're you're going to have the better potential for the market to be receptive if you're using plant based.

 

[00:34:30] But then are potentially you really still need to include Michigan in there somewhere? Because there's going to be people like you and me that go, really? Is it actually Vegan or you just saying plant based? And you know what's in there?

 

[00:34:43] So the survey, I think you're right, there's there's a few studies. And by the time something gets into an academic paper or it makes it into a report published by a consultancy like those I used to work for. It's usually about a year, maybe a year and a half out of date anyway. Yeah, we prefer to actually look at the most recent activity that the business has experienced. Have a look at public reviews that are legitimate, but it reviews an activity of competitors and the business in the public domain and really look at search trends within the location itself. You know, using Google search data and those sorts of things to see what are people really interested in. Like, I don't know why, but for some reason, during Kofod 19, statistically, people across the world started getting really excited about Vegan banana bread.

 

[00:35:44] I don't know what I'm missing. Maybe I need to learn the recipe, but it seems to be life changing if you're stuck at home. So, you know, if you're if you're if you have a cafe and people are starting to to be free to come in and engage with you again after social isolation, some of those comfort foods could be something that's quite attractive. If it has been very popular in the recipe search activity in your community. People like me might have searched for the recipe, tried to make Vegan banana banana bread and failed dismally. But we've still got a bit of a hankering for that sort of comfort food.

 

[00:36:25] So if it comes down to the type of business that somebody is doing. You know, there's a big difference between people looking at investment products or fashion compared with food. But, you know, it really comes down to understanding. The how to define the market itself and then having a look at some sort of indicators of not only interest, but whether or not people are going to put their money where their mouth is, because we want. We want people to have a good a good experience. If you take. Somebody that has an emotional attachment to the menu with a business and they like reluctantly being dragged into this hole. All right. A bit a provide some sort of Vegan option. You want them to go wowsers like Greg's sausage rolls.

 

[00:37:19] Greg Zaken, sausage rolls. You can imagine the skepticism initially and then it pretty much saved their save their cash flow at a critical time. And then all of a sudden. Oh, oh, yes. You know, we're gonna add this. We're gonna do this. And it adds momentum. And that makes me it just makes me feel great. Gennari that. If somebody is going to get a really good outcome from accommodating and embracing sort of Vegan requirements and really looking at those sort of supply chain opportunities, I really want them to be successful because I want to keep doing it.

 

[00:38:03] I want to do it more and preferably shift all the way across it.

 

[00:38:08] We have to take baby steps sometime.

 

[00:38:10] Absolutely. And I think that it's, you know, the best form of persuasion is example and success, as you were mentioning prior to that, states, you know, a lot of fast food chains.

 

[00:38:21] The majority of them have started offering a Vegan alternative, even ones like Kentucky Fried Chicken, that their entitlement was based on chicken. And they have this meat alternative now and it's economical for them. That's the most hysterical part. You know, I used to tell people for years who were just adamant about, you know, they just loved their burger or their sandwiches. You know, those are like 40 percent. So I already like them. They mix, they're like movie and they look it up and it's this daunting shock and awe. And I was like, you're paff Vegan already. Don't worry about it. Be there. But I do think that that helps persuade smaller models and things of that nature. And, you know, it's a win win.

 

[00:38:59] I tried to explain to people, particularly in my humble way of educating, which is a far less refined than yourself, but it's hardly your podcasts are fantastic.

 

[00:39:11] Oh, you're so kind. It's, I think saving the environment, saving money, saving your health. There's not one angle that being Vegan does not help, you know. And, um. And I think when you when that's introduced, it's it's kind of this. Why haven't we all been doing this? I was talking to a good friend and a colleague, a mentor of mine. And she said, you know, one day in the very near future, we're going to be turning to our grandchildren who looked at us and said, did you really eat meat ever? Like, when was that? OK, like, how was how were you sustaining that mental framework? And I thought, I guess it just doesn't make any sense when you play all of the mathematics out, the economy, the health, all of it is it answers to the one human condition that will outweigh that will start wars that will make us irrationally fall in love. And it's our own emotional attachment that we've put onto food. It's you know, it's a mother's kiss. It's all of these things that it's not just the burger, you know. And so. And realizing that, I think is the first step of unpacking it. And you you endeavoring to do that with clients is is definitely something that would get me out of bed in the morning. We are coming towards the end and we always honor our audience who reaches out to us. Penelope, we've had a bunch of people kind of want us to speak with these business advisor roles in regards to, you know, Vegan. We've had a lot of people write in with their own Vegan based endeavors. And so I'm going to just pradel off some of the questions and let you kind of give us your expertize on those in our Rapid Fire segment.

 

[00:40:46] So the first day, I'll just brace myself.

 

[00:40:51] Give it a whole bunch of. It's just more questions. I don't know. I love it. Let's do it. I want our audience to understand that we are hearing them because I think I've been so rewarded by having this interaction that I didn't know what we would have with podcasts. And so I love it. And I want people to know that I'm hearing them. And. And I definitely look at all the questions that come in. And I want to make sure that they get proffered to the right expert yourself today. We've had a lot of people writing about buzzwords and you just spoke about SVO and things like that. But people, they feel like they're reading this tightrope. We've talked about plant based versus Vegan. And and I didn't have you clarify those because I know that your expertize does that. And, you know, and like you said, plant based is not in for Vegan. It's this friendly term. But people are now using it that have non Vegan items. You know, it's supposed to infer health. As I understand it, it's the new way of saying, like fortified with vitamins. You know, it's the advertising industry has come in. And because of that, you can't really depend on it. However, it still has a lot of cachet with, you know, SVO and things of that nature. But we've had people write in and ask to ask you and your expertize about when you're navigating some of those terms. Do you have like the top five that you stay away from or a lot of people talked about? You know, I don't want to use Vegan, but I do. And, you know, they're talking about massaging it in and sandwiching it in with other terms. Do you have advice to people who are kind of looking for buzz words? I suppose that to stay away from or to navigate around.

 

[00:42:26] Well, depends on on what the products are. So if you're dealing with makeup, for example, Vegan and cruelty free are real positives. You know, like get it up there in lights.

 

[00:42:43] You know, the market responds really well, obviously.

 

[00:42:48] If you're dealing with products like shoes and fashion plant based doesn't quite work because of exactly the points you made. I think you can really hit the nail on it. People do resident with plant based not only as a beacon indicator, but also in terms of nutritional health. So they get a little bit confused. And it not as powerful when you use it with with fashion and those sorts of accessories, those sorts of products. So in that sense, the phrase Vegan friendly does tend to it seems to work. And I think when you move into the food space in terms of this, there's a difference here. If you're looking at visual branding, the buzzwords you use in your your menus and your visual presence in terms of your your website content and your other collateral, you definitely want plant based in there.

 

[00:43:58] Your food based business. But interestingly, when you actually crunch the numbers in terms of search activity, plant based is microscopic. So people are looking for plant based this. They'll just use the word Vegan. Know if you're. Yeah. In terms of your content ACOR and your inbound marketing type activity, you've really got to keep Vegan in the picture. So other aspects in terms of cruelty free, cruelty free can can pivot into a couple of different markets in terms of plant based. But it confuses people because they start thinking of humane meat.

 

[00:44:49] Right. We all know is not cruelty free at all, ever. So it's it's ridiculous. But people start to get confused. So, you know, plant based in the forefront.

 

[00:45:02] But Vegan as the the the sort of working the working keywords in the background is something you can use. And if you use it together, it's also quite powerful.

 

[00:45:15] Yeah, we had an end to that.

 

[00:45:17] And we also had like another flurry of questions around people worried about redundancy with advertising and marketing, because this is an area I think maybe vegans themselves are too educated on to understand. But I'll have you answer it because I definitely don't want to. And it's people talking about if they're using the word Vegan, do they need to say environmentally friendly? Because being Vegan as as we understand, you know, and using Vegan alternatives, these were largely people and they involved in the evolve erupting food scene here. Are people dealing with online a lot of people. Right. And who are these Vegan foods that they were selling online and bakeries and things like that? And they talked about ask. They want to know how much is too redundant. So saying, you know, cruelty free, Vegan environmentally friendly, like all of these different words. Would you advise that they use all of them or pull back because some infer the meaning of the others?

 

[00:46:16] Oh, this one that differs depending on the country. And you touched on this earlier, you know that there are real differences in nuances between different cultures. The American markets very well educated. And so that could be potential for redundancy. But then they can also be the potential for backlash because environmentally friendly is is a term that you might want to use because of the comparable benefits of of veganism and Vegan supply chains for climate change and for other environmental factors. But if you're using insecticides and you're not an organic based product, then you can actually get backlash because it's all you say that you're environmentally friendly or eco friendly. But you know, the way that your product is being developed, you know, doesn't have this this this this little law issue here. That's that's. Yeah. Then something that's quite significant. So we have to respect that. People's interpretation of people's values differ. So there's a lot more complexity in the American market. I think in that space. And it really depends on what type of business, Syrian and landline you don't want to step on. If you're in the European market and Asia Pacific, eco friendly and environmentally friendly isn't redundant. There's definitely some different varieties in terms of people's choices, in terms of why they're choosing Vegan. We also have a spiritual dimension. In places like Israel and and other countries where we aren't adding Vegan enough to be able to have to help people who have Vegan diets associated with certain types of Catholicism and other religions.

 

[00:48:22] You know, it's it's a spiritual practice as well.

 

[00:48:25] So it is something that we should put front and center to help people. Even kosher, for example, people from the Middle East will try to go towards Vegan products in some cases when they travel to the West because they know they can avoid breaking their religious religious principles.

 

[00:48:49] Just if I just know that it's Vegan, I've got no worries about, you know, issues associated with the way that the meat is butchered. Right.

 

[00:48:57] So there's a really complex array of drivers, motivators and reactions that people have to these sorts of words across the world. But generally, if you try it first listen and then you respond more. Look, as I said before, this is where you're looking at people's reactions, reviews and discussions around your competitor's products and activities of your own. The case is really just to listen like you're doing to your your listeners at the moment. You're asking you're responding to their questions and bringing it into the conversation to see if you can unpack it and use that as you develop your content. Moving forward, it's a really good model. I think as an example of this.

 

[00:49:46] Yeah, I agree. And I always overlook that, like Google Analytics. I mean, I think that really paying attention to, you know, what your trends are doing as you use different words. There are great testers, you know, particularly in times when focus groups don't really happen right now. And that definitely person. But, you know, like using those kinds of measurable data have been game changers for most American companies that I talk to, you know, models, people like Netflix who started off just mailing DVD to people. They have this room built in-house for focus groups in their headquarters because of the importance of how it developed that company, you know, and wanted to listen to their users. And so I think that's a key and a key concept that gets overlooked with a lot of business owners is really paying attention to your audience. I agree with you.

 

[00:50:37] I didn't know that. That's a great example. I'm going to steal that Netflix example and have a look into it. Thank you. I have an up close and personal relationship with somebody who kind of was with Netflix before they became that, you know, the magnet that they are. And so it was great to watch that company kind of come into their own and really reach adulthood. I'm wondering. Not me. I'm sorry. We've had a lot of people write in regarding your personal elevator, elevator pitch or pitch dark or however that translates to your neck of the woods.

 

[00:51:10] But when it comes to veganism, you know, this very kind of siccing, do you find yourself? Ever returning to these like five or six things that, you know, kind of tend to want to relate very, very quickly, either with clients or anyone else that you feel like really encompasses the importance of Vegan or anything like that. So a lot of people are just like, I want to know what someone who is advising people towards Vegan business. They're like quick and fast. You know, this these core tenants that you have that you kind of quickly try to communicate, you have anything like that in your lexicon.

 

[00:51:47] Yeah, well, twofold to personally, a phrase I'll often uses, you know, if I can live well and have a really happy life while not hurting other people. Why would I. Know while not hurting others? And in terms of the business space, it's again, it's it's it's kind of related to that. It's it's like if you can if you can make great money in a way that's compassionate, then why wouldn't you? Yeah, and that's basically it. So I accidently turned a neighbor, Vegan.

 

[00:52:27] I didn't realize until a couple of years later she said, do you seem to just be so happy about the new substitutes that you found? And you should pace things that I brought home in. And it seemed to be so. I always seem to be so relaxed and and at pace that she started looking into it herself. After I'd moved. Actually, and she got in contact with me and she'd been Vegan for about a year at that stage. And she was really happy.

 

[00:53:03] Well done. That's a notch on your belt.

 

[00:53:06] It made my day. It made my week. Absolutely.

 

[00:53:10] Absolutely. Lead by example. I love. That's what I'm always telling my children. That's wonderful. Penelope, we're out of time. And I'm kind of bummed because it was a fascinating walk. And I know that our audience is really going to appreciate everything that you've shared with us today. All of your advice and expertize. I really do appreciate you giving me the time.

 

[00:53:30] Thank you so much. It's been an absolute honor. Joining you on your podcast. Thank you very much.

 

[00:53:35] And for everyone listening, we've been speaking with Penelope Fry. She's an international consultant and Vegan market expert. You can find out more about her consultancy as well as her company on their Web site, Chicoy dot com. That is JHC. Oh, I dot com. And thank you for giving us your time today. I appreciate you all so much.

 

[00:53:55] And until we speak again next time, remember to stay safe, eat clean and responsibly and always better yourself. Slainte.