Speaking With Kathleen Kastner of The Humane Society of the United States

Today I sit down with Kathleen Kastner. Kathleen has a Master's Degree in Exercise Physiology and has been vegan since 2002. She works for The Humane Society of the United States with their Forward Food program as a Food & Nutrition Coordinator. She leads plant-based culinary trainings at schools, colleges and hospitals to help institutions get more vegan food on their menus.

This series features conversations I conducted with individuals who have dedicated their work and lives to Vegan research, businesses, art, and society. This podcast series is hosted by Patricia Kathleen and Wilde Agency Media. 

www.kathleenkastner.com; www.forwardfood.org

 

TRANSCRIPTION

[00:00:10] Hi, I'm Patricia. And this is investigating Vegan life with Patricia Kathleen. This series features interviews and conversations I conduct with experts from food and fashion to tech and agriculture, from medicine and science to health and humanitarian arenas. Our inquiry is an effort to examine the variety of industries and lifestyle tenants in the world of Vegan life. To that end. We will cover topics that have revealed themselves as Kofman and integral when exploring veganism. The dialog captured here is part of our ongoing effort to host transparent and honest rhetoric. For those of you who, like myself, find great value in hearing the expertize and opinions of individuals who have dedicated their work and lives to their ideals. You can find information about myself and my podcast at Patricia Kathleen dot com. Welcome to Investigating Vegan Life. Now let's start the conversation. 

 

[00:01:13] Hi, everyone, and welcome back. This is your host, Patricia. And today I am excited to be sitting down with Kathleen Kassner. 

 

[00:01:20] She is an entrepreneur, business owner, author and Vegan cooking show host. Welcome, Kathleen. 

 

[00:01:27] Thank you so much for having me, Patricia. 

 

[00:01:29] Absolutely. I am so excited. 

 

[00:01:31] You have such an amazing history and dynamic professional life. And I want to get into all of that. I'm going to read for everyone listening. I'm going to read a brief bio on Kathleen. But before I do that, a quick roadmap. She can follow today's podcast on its trajectory. We're gonna get into Kathleen's background. Mainly her. Her Vegan story and how she'd kind of enumerate where she came to be at this point, her life. And then we'll turn to unpacking her professional past and the dialog that that has between what she was doing with that and the Vegan world. And then we'll turn to the ethos of her current work with the Humane Society and the food forward program. And then we'll turn our attention towards the end of the podcast towards future goals, both professionally and personally, as well as any advice Kathleen might have for those looking to get involved in any of the projects that she's had or maybe emulate some of her career success. A quick bio on Kathleen before I start peppering her with questions. Kathleen Kessner has a master's degree in exercise physiology and has been a vegan since 2002. She works for the Humane Society of the United States with their food forward program. Sorry, the forward food program as a food nutrition coordinator. She leads plant based culinary trainings at schools, colleges and hospitals to help institutions get more Vegan food on their menus. Her mission is to educate people on the health benefits of whole food plant based diet. While saving animals and helping the planet. Kathleen was a yoga studio owner in Kansas City for 16 years and teaches Ashtanga yoga retreats internationally. She's the author of Yoga's Path to Weight Loss and hosts a vegan cooking show on YouTube so you can find out a little bit more. She's got a couple of Web sites. W w w dot. Kathleen Kassner, dot com. That's K a t h. L. e E n. K. A. S. T n e. R dot com. And w w. W dot food forward dot. org, as we discussed, that you might want to hit that Web site. So, Kathleen, before I get into everything that you are currently doing with food forward in Humane Society, I'm hoping you can dress like a roadmap of what you feel like, your personal story or background and history, education, all that stuff has been with your Vegan life. Great. 

 

[00:03:49] Thank you so much. I was born and raised in Kansas, which I like to joke that it's not exactly the Vegan capital of America. I was really fortunate that I from Kansas, when I got out of college, I moved to San Diego and got a job with Sharpes Hospital. And one of my first clients there was Dr. Deepak Chopra. So when I was young, naive girl, this would have been in 1993. And I get to meet Dr. Chopra at my job. And I didn't know who he was at the time, but I became became his personal trainer and got introduced to his work and consciousness and got introduced to my first yoga class, which literally changed every single aspect of my life for the better. So I'm really grateful that for that divine synchronicity, I had to be at that job at five a.m. in the morning right after college, and that I would get to meet Depok. So I definitely looking back, you know, twenty five years later realized it was definitely meant to be. So I got introduced to yoga and through the years I changed everything. My diet was the first thing to change. I was already vegetarian. I think, unfortunately, I might have been eating like a fish couple times a year and I had to put my cat to sleep. I had a two year old child with Cat and I chose to hold her while they did it. And it really like woke me up. I was like who I am. I don't ever need to eat any living being a you know, I really got it. And I felt like that was a gift she gave to me. And so I became vegetarian, started practicing yoga daily, got to open my first yoga studio in nineteen ninety nine in Kansas City. And every year I did yoga. Something dropped that that wasn't serving my highest good. You know, I eventually dropped, I dropped alcohol, I dropped caffeine, which I thought I would never live to say and my whole life. But but I was still having some health problems. I was having a lot of allergies, asthma and acne. And it was from the dairy. But I had no idea. I went to a conference. Marianne Williamson, host of this conference and I went to from Kansas City to Michigan. She was the minister of a church and hosted this big peace conference. And one of her speakers was Congress. And Dennis Kucinich from Ohio. And he stood up on that stage saying how he had had these undiagnosed health problems and no one could figure out what was wrong with them. And he read Diet for a New America by John Robbins. And John Robbins was the heir to Baskin Robbins and chose to not take over the family business because he saw his uncle died early in his early 50s of a heart attack. His father got diabetes and he realized that dairy was killing his family members. So he did not take over the business, which was a huge falling out and became this amazing plant based educator. So he wrote this book, Diet for a New America. And Dennis Kucinich had read it and told the whole audience how he changed a plant based diet. And those diagnosed health problems magically went away. So I was sitting in the audience going, well, my gosh, I never even consider, you know, I wasn't even eating a lot of dairy and eggs. I was actually more of an attack and dressing than a ranch dressing kind of person. My whole life, I had been like that. But the little dairy that I would have was really wreaking havoc on my health. So I remember sitting in the audience thinking, well, I'm already vegetarian, you know, and I don't even know if he said the word Vegan. But I went back to Kansas City where I didn't know any vegans and I just took him out of my diet. And it was like a miracle. My skin cleared up practically in the first week. I got off the inhaler and got off the Flonase and my whole my health changed. So that's my Vegan story. And then when I did learn the ethics of what was going on in the dairy industry and the egg industry and that we were impregnating cows and taking away their babies and grinding up male chicks and grinders. And I was like, there is no way I'm going to have anything to do with these systems that are being cruel to animals. So I was very easy for me. I it's been 18 years and I just I never looked back. It was just like a switch went on and it was very easy. I and my husband I met twelve years ago, it was miraculously Vegan. 

 

[00:08:41] We had a Vegan wedding to our Kansas and Wisconsin family members in Los Angeles. And so it's just been a huge part of my life. I'm really blessed. 

 

[00:08:50] I have a partner be supportive and he's a great cook. And our yoga studio, Kansas City, we promoted veganism as much as possible. 

 

[00:09:00] Yeah. I wonder with your said, given this prolific history that you have with a yoga studio, you and I spoke just briefly off the record before we started the podcast about how yoga studios are kind of tricky. 

 

[00:09:12] And when I run into them, I interview a lot of small business owners and even all the way up to large business titans. And sometimes the industry can confuse one to thinking that it's not a business type industry. We talked about how yoga studios are one of those areas where I find that people assume, like, you know, Yogi's own them and they do a lot of yoga. But it is indeed a business unto itself. And I was wondering, and the connection between as a business owner and a yogi yourself, there is an inherent connection. I find a lot of yoga yogis or people who do yoga are not a shock to find someone being Vegan. But there's also an assumption that every yogi is Vegan or that they understand that lifestyle. And I'm wondering throughout, because you had such a prolific career owning different yoga studios. I'm wondering if you ever had an opportunity to engage in collaboration's or education regarding veganism or did you keep those things very separate? You were a vegan. You were also a yoga studio owner. Did they ever collaborate? 

 

[00:10:10] Yes, I pretty much shouted it from the mountaintop. Once I once I knew, knew better for myself that how I could help, you know, not only my health, but the animals and the environment. Yes. I became very outspoken and I did get some grief and I probably still do, but I'm going to keep speaking out. I got these Vegan startup kits from PETA. They will give them to you for free. They will ship them to your yoga studio for free. They have a benefactor who pays for them. And I set them right up there at the front desk with all the other literature schedules. Our hope when we host a teacher trainings, I would ask our students to go Vegan. Of course, they had free will whether they did or didn't. But we have had people come back later through the years who have stayed Vegan and we would host Vegan potlucks and movie screenings and just tried to really get them involved. Of course, most of them were not Vegan but. If you share delicious Vegan food and then people can realize like, hey, you don't have to be deprived. This is amazing. So we did the letter home and we did them at the studio. And I always think that sharing delicious food is a great people, great way to help educate people on the benefits of veganism. 

 

[00:11:32] Yeah, it's it's clever, too. I hadn't I hadn't put this together. I mean, there are religions out there that put service and food in a way to help convert and share a peaceful message. 

 

[00:11:43] And so it stands to reason that a dietary and lifestyle movement could easily do the same. I think that's a really good point. And always your education, right? Just be sharing that education. 

 

[00:11:57] So I'm wondering, I want to turn now the efforts towards I'm looking at the ethos of the Humane Society and the food forward program. 

 

[00:12:04] Can you start by painting a picture of what the kid when I think of the Humane Society. I tend to think of animals and things of that nature. And so I want to look at can you explain what aspect of the Humane Society, what chapter, that type of thing that you're in. And then also draw us out like an outline of what the food forward program is? 

 

[00:12:27] Sure, sure. So I work for the Humane Society of the United States and I just want to clarify its forward food stuff. That's OK. It's forward food, dawg. And it was started four years ago and by Chef Wanda. And it is under meat reduction. So this is farm animal protection and meat reduction. These campaigns, it's under. So we're trying to save farm animals. In a nutshell, by teaching people how to make delicious plant based foods without using them. And we're not asking people to go vegan, but we're just asking to get more plant based options on institution menus for those who care to have them, especially when somebody is in the hospital. If they went in for heart disease, you know, the last thing we want to do is give them bacon and eggs in the morning after they wake up from their heart surgery. And I worked in choreography when I was younger. So it's very important to educate them right away, you know? And of course, people have free will. But if we can at least start introducing healthier foods. So at the Humane Society, we do these plant based culinary trainings to K through twelve food service workers, dieticians, chefs, colleges and hospitals. So it's a lot of fun. So we go in and we work with the staff. Sometimes it's around 20 people. And I give a PowerPoint on why we're there for health, animals, the environment, and then we get to go into the kitchen. And it depends on the institution. But sometimes I get to bring one of our Vegan chefs from Seattle and work with their culinary staff to make anywhere from 15 to 20 plant based recipes. So we break them up into teams of two and they get recipes and they make them within a couple hours. And then when it's done, we set up a big buffet table and the whole staff gets to taste all the different dishes. They present their dishes. They they are allowed to make tweaks if they want to make the recipe their own. It just can have animal products, but extra spice here and there. So we really try to get the staff excited about plant based foods so that they'll be more interested in helping to make them. So then the food service director and the chefs get to decide which recipes they'd like to put on their menus. And then I follow up with them within the next few months to see what changes they've made in meat reduction. 

 

[00:15:03] That's exciting. I think it's such a great way to come at it. 

 

[00:15:06] You know, it's it's this kind of, again, this educational model of showing and educating as as you kind of set up some of the dangers of of having meat so prolifically represented in the American diet, even on the social level. I'm wondering, with schools, have you been able when you get into colleges, have you. Has the program looked into getting into elementary schools? And if you have done that. Is that that's a system that I think even a lot of people. I have children that go to school and I'm not sure if it's state mandated or federally mandated. You know how that school lunch system works because my children don't partake in it. But I'm wondering how much flexibility there is to have organizations such as Forward Food go in and pitch them and speak to them. Is it state run? Are you guys able to penetrate some of the areas near what you're doing or is it mainly on the college level? 

 

[00:16:00] No, we definitely do K through 12th. It's a lot of fun. I've gotten to do I really have the position for eight months. But I've gotten to do some case patrols and they do make changes. They like are are Vegan sloppy Joes that are made with lentils and veggie crumbles and barbecue sauce. Yes, we definitely we have all the nutritional requirements that are necessary to meet their requirements. And then so our meat alternative is usually beans or lentils in that respect. So as long as it meets the requirements nutritional wise for the meat requirement and the protein requirement, then it it's good to go and they can adopt them. 

 

[00:16:41] That's fantastic. I think it's so exciting to have those. Because as you introduce the younger generation to it, I think that's where you truly get, you know, early education and experience with that education coming up. 

 

[00:16:53] And I think programs like that need to start taking hold. I mean, the food paradigm that they developed the nutritional guidelines from is suspect, you know, anyway, it hasn't really been overturned and people who have just kind of flipped it on its head. But I do think that looking into systems like this, one of the biggest problems people think is that developing a solution would be very, very difficult. Do you have specific products that are kind of your go to you mentioned the lentils were sloppy Joes for schools and things like that. Do you does your program have these kind of staples, if you will, of supplements that you bring in quite frequently to kind of pitch people on? 

 

[00:17:33] We actually give them a grocery list with all the ingredients for all the different recipes. So there's 20 recipes. The chef helps. And I helped design this list. So they go shopping. And sometimes I do need a little help, you know, like where do I get nutritional yeast or if they need a certain brand of veggie crumbles or chicken nuggets like we refer them out to Hungry Planet or Morningstar or we connect them with vendors. We don't have our own vendors, you know, that we that we use. Exactly. And we give them options so they can source it from any plant based company they like. Or sometimes I just try to give them a little guidance on where to go if they don't know how to get Vegan mandates. 

 

[00:18:13] Right. Yeah. It's great because it removes you guys from affiliation and getting caught up with it being more corporate based, which I think there has been kind of a movement towards. There's been. And now I'd like to kind of crawl into that. So there's plant based and there's Vegan. 

 

[00:18:30] And I've been interviewing a lot of people involved in the Vegan world. 

 

[00:18:35] So not just the food world that you're functioning in, but also the community, artistic endeavors, fashion designers, cosmetic creators. And this idea has kind of arisen and a lot of people feel like it's starting. As it always is starting to get become an advertising debate. But you have plant based and then you have Vegan. And I'm wondering, everyone defines these a little bit differently. So I'm hoping that just to get an idea from you and your perspective, how would you define something that is plant based and how would you define something? Is Vegan? Is there a difference? What is the difference for you in your work? 

 

[00:19:12] For me, because Vegan was around when I became Vegan, Vegan was the term, so I associate with the word Vegan. I also for me. It means that I also care about the animals and the ethics and the spirituality and and Mother Earth first day. And I feel like when this whole food plant based movement came out, which is great, because that means usually very little or no oil or sugar or salt. Usually for people who are having serious health problems, you know, diabetes, heart disease, weight loss or high blood pressure, high cholesterol. So this whole food plant based diet came out, which is the healthiest way to eat because there is a lot of junk food, potato chips, Oreos and soda. So it is important to eat a Whole Foods plant based diet and then you have a little fun on the weekends if you get some sweet potato fries out or something like that. But for me, I identify with the word Vegan because I am such an animal advocate and sometimes plant based people are not as interested in the animals in the environment. They're very, very into health, which is wonderful. And we need all angles to support the movement. But for me, that is the big difference, that when you're Vegan, you're really you're in it for all all reasons. And when you're just plant base, you're really mainly into it for your health. Yeah. Which is great. And sometimes I've seen that the whole food plant based people become animal advocates and environmental activists, you know, becomes more to them. And I'm the same way. I mean, when I'm in Vegan. I had no idea what was one. I was the cow. Dairy cows in the egg industry. So I started for my health, too. 

 

[00:21:01] Yeah, I think you're right. I've seen a lot of gateway moments like that, you know, a gateway drug. And there's a lot of different reasons, you know. I've interviewed people that came at being coming. They're unlike I call them the unlikely vegans because they don't have a history or an environment that would treat veganism. But they suffered a heart attack at thirty five, in fact. Forget it. And there's just there's a lot of different ways some people have watched game changers and decided, I can't I can't be a part of this. There's been a lot of avenues now with the pandemic. I've spoken to a bunch of people recently that are investigating the lifestyle heavily because it's you know, health has become at the forefront of everyone's mind. And the plant based versus Vegan, I think there's been a lot of pushback that I've heard about, particularly in the food industries, because plant based is being attached by marketing agendas that also have animal products in them. And so when vegans identify with being plant based, they're consuming or buying things and discovering that they're not Vegan. It's kind of like being fortified with vitamin D or other folic acid. You know, when they when health people got a hold of that in the 80s and 90s, everything was suddenly fortified and terrifying. 

 

[00:22:16] Well, yes, you're right. True. There are plant based, also plant based products. And they'll have a little egg or casing. Yeah. If you read the ingredients. So you do. If you're if you're serious about destroying the ingredients. 

 

[00:22:28] Absolutely. And so I want to kind of turn towards. I'm not sure how much rhetoric you have had on a professional level or personal level. 

 

[00:22:38] I did touch briefly on, you know, the interest and the return to thinking about health as as a as a civilization is kind of peaking for people. And I'm wondering if you've thought if there's been enough time for you to kind of marinate in it and think about how the Humane Society or forward food would sculpt. Do you think that some of your rhetoric will start changing to be more inclusive of talking about the pandemic as as restrictions rise? Of course. And you return back to I know you have this kind of in-person person format to a lot of what you do. And as that returns, do you think that some of the dialog will change to kind of include what we have been experiencing as a society? 

 

[00:23:22] Definitely. I I was talking with my manager. We're hoping to be all that. We do this our point and at least, you know, add in a slide or two about what's happened. We really try to focus on health, the health and the environment. And so but so in both of those things are relative to the pandemic. And the thing is that all slaughterhouses are, ah, you know, breeding grounds for disease. I mean, there's what we've already had, avian flu, bird flu, swine flu. There's a lot of there's mad cow disease that is very covered up in the United States. Salmonella, E. coli, Ebola Scar's. I mean, the list goes on and on about it isn't just happening in other countries is happening in United States. So that raising animals for food is. Breeding ground for disease. So we are going to hopefully we definitely won't be dwelling on it, but we work it. We'll plug it in there a little bit. 

 

[00:24:19] Absolutely. Lisa Slainte current. Right. I'm wondering and I want to really quickly circle back. I neglected to ask you. I'm interested in people who come up with these recipes that you have. You mentioned. A chef in Seattle. If we if we get to. We like to fly someone down. Where do you find your chefs? How do you collect the recipes? Do you ever have competitions that people can kind of submit to or how does that work? 

 

[00:24:41] You know, it's all done internally within Ford Food and Høst US. So we have a staff. Amazing chefs. And they are recipe creators. And they also will collaborate with Sodexho large food management companies and create plant based recipes that are just proprietary just to that institution. So if it's if it's a Sodexho card, then we have these Sodexho recipes. But then anybody can go to forward food or under food service. And there are about 100 plant based recipes for anyone. Just be sure you look at the top of the serving size because we are doing larger institutions. Ten is ten to twelve servings. And you could just cut it in half or less. So we are very creative and they're always updating them to make them even better because that's just really for me. Even before I had this job, which is why I started my YouTube channel, my number one way to help animals is by teaching people how to cook without using them. Because everybody loves good food. Not everybody is passionate about their health or the animals and the environment. I wish they were, but everybody likes good food. So that's what we try to do with flawed food. We just try to make great food. In fact, we encourage like K through 12. They're going to add one of our recipes, research shows to not call it vegetarian or vegan. Do not say this is a vegan sloppy Joe today. You know, to use creative adjectives like, you know, spicy, spicy being chili or, you know, something really more descriptive. Doesn't it just say this is a veggie burger, you know, black beans, sweet potato burger or just something? 

 

[00:26:34] So the kids are like, well, and likewise, I like to tell people they've been substituting your meat with soy for years now, so don't worry about it. This kind of like Terada going down. 

 

[00:26:47] While I don't feel kind of bad for those children who are very conscious and gonda like from birth, who actually are looking for the V word, but because they've probably grown up with it or have educated themselves, that they they understand what it is without being called that. Yeah. You know, it just it just helps if you just use a fun descriptive word like this. Food service director told me they were doing a three bean chili on Fritos, which I know are the most amazing healthy food. But they called it a Frito boat. And the kids love the Frito boats. No, I didn't say anything about it being meatless. Exactly. Oh. 

 

[00:27:34] So likewise, you see, you bring your chefs in internally. They're brought in by the Humane Society. What if someone had a school system or something that they wanted you to pitch to? Could they reach out to you or your department? And have you got me? 

 

[00:27:48] I cover the Southwest region, but we have coordinators throughout the country. So it's not an I. I do California, Arizona, Utah, Mexico, Colorado, Arizona. So and then we have others of coordinators around the country. So, yes, please reach out to me and I'll connect you with the right people. 

 

[00:28:08] That's exciting. Well, I want to climb in to the before we let you go. I want to climb in to your YouTube cooking channel and all of that. 

 

[00:28:18] How how long have you been doing it? How long are the episodes? Where can people find your channel on YouTube? 

 

[00:28:25] It's actually under my name, Capling Kassner. They call it Vegan vitality, but you can find it under Kathleen Kassner. So when I I left Kansas City five years ago, I saw my yoga studio, which was a big deal because I've had it for 16 years and I really want to dove into wellness and Vegan education. So the ironic thing is how I was not a very good cook. 

 

[00:28:50] My husband is the better cook. 

 

[00:28:53] I'm not sure we started like on Facebook Live and I just kept telling him, like, I just like we have the greatest chefs to help people if we show them what we eat. You know, we're I'm from Kansas again and he's from Wisconsin. I'm like, we think everyone knows what we eat as vegans, but they probably really don't know. So let's show some of this awesome what we make. So he started filming me and he's in a few of them, too. Because, again, he's actually the better cook. But we started going into a kitchen and it's just been a lot of fun and we have since moved. We have a better kitchen now and we have upgraded our equipment. So I feel like we're just kind of finally starting over. But it's been great to share delicious recipes. And I love hearing the feedback. When people start telling me they're making pineapple fried rice weekly for their families and the kids like, you know. So that makes me excited. We we have a long way to go. So I would really appreciate it if anybody subscribed because I really want to reach more and more people in 2020 and share delivered delicious Vegan brands that I do use. That just simple truth organic, which is a Kroger brand and very affordable and easily accessible. So it's just been a lot of fun. 

 

[00:30:06] Yeah, absolutely. Especially with, you know, the friend reached out to me, a colleague, and she called it Kovik cooking. 

 

[00:30:13] But, you know, people swapping recipes and channels and getting into things even for those who aren't and, you know, Vegan or Vegan identify to look at some of your recipes and try them out like that's it's an exciting change. And, you know, people have some time right now to maybe get to it and everyone's cooking at home. So it's a great time. 

 

[00:30:31] We call it warrantee cooking and we have about 90 recipes on there. We literally made every single favorite dish we have. I'm still researching weekly, trying to come up with more. 

 

[00:30:44] No more. Great. Yeah. Absolutely. As we wrap up today, I'm wondering and I know that things have changed because of the current climate with everyone's and the precariousness of where everyone's headed professionally. Things like that. 

 

[00:30:59] And so if you haven't had a recent dialog with yourself perhaps before the Cauvin 19 hit, but can you elaborate a little bit about your future goals, both dealing with the Humane Society and Forward Food, as well as like the cooking channel? Where do you see yourself kind of wanting to head or some of your goals for the next one to three years? 

 

[00:31:21] Okay, that's a great question. With the Humane Society, we really are working towards helping institutions to go 50 percent plant based in the next four years. Nice. Which is already happening, amazingly so, that's my goal with the Humane Society. And to be honest with you, my goal with my cooking channel is I would love I have a love, honest throat out there. I'll make it a big goal. I would love to have a million subscribers and I would love to have simple truth, organic. Be our sponsor. 

 

[00:32:03] Great. Well, there you go. You know, it's it's it's the secret, right? This is a visual verbal vision board. Absolutely. That's a great goal. I love it. A million subscribers and simple truth organic. That's fantastic. Well, we are all out of time today, but I wanted to tell you that I really appreciate everything that you kind of Kathleen. Everything that you've enumerated on. I love the work that you're doing. And I really appreciate all of the information you gave us. So thank you so much for your time. 

 

[00:32:35] Thank you so much for the opportunity to share veganism with your audience. 

 

[00:32:39] Absolutely. And for everyone listening, we've been talking with Kathleen Kesner. You can find her at Kathleen Kassner dot com. 

 

[00:32:46] And you can also find out more about what she's doing at the Humane Society at Forward Food dot org. 

 

[00:32:52] And until we speak again next time. Thank you for giving us your time. And remember to eat clean, eat well and always bet on yourself. Stay safe.